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Ghosts Chance
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Posted - 2014.03.01 10:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
with this and the new stats in mind heavys are going to be absolute monsters in 1.8 with insane amounts of EHP even while using basic suits while fully skilled.
commandos (aka heavy assault) are going to overshadow traditional assault suits and logis are going to actually be logis.
scouts are going to be.... dieing alot and killing alot but then again scouts have never really been all that concerned with KDR.
mass drivers are going to be crap against the heavy spam and OP against everything else.
winmatar assaults are going to also suffer from that splash damage reduction.
caldari heavys are going to learn very quickly that fluxes kill as they cant get enough armor to survive one like their assault and logi brotheren.
gallante heavys are going to scare the **** out of people and will be FOTM since they are going to be running around with over 1000 armor and damage resistance against anything thats actually good at countering that (unlike the caldari version)
1.8 FOTM
gallante heavy
flux nades
caldari/gal scout
HMGs
minmatar commandos with CR and MDs
special mention, logis are going to absolutly LOVE 1.8 as it will be VERY armor heavy and there will be LOADS of people to rep and give ammo to that cant bring ammo themselves.
Winmatar logi |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1166
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Posted - 2014.03.01 10:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:I think your predictions sound pretty good, but you really never know for sure how it will play out.
currently EHP is king, the more HP you can stack the better, hence why you will see many heavys carting around light weapons, simply because the HP is better.
i see nothing that will change that, and with the gallante heavys stats and skills theres nothing else int he game that can compaire to its defencive and therefore offencive capabilities.
unlike the cal heavy the gal one has no natureal predators, theres no real counter to it because of the splash,projectile, and rail resistance every weapon that would be ideal to counter its massive block of HP suffers from extreme damage reduction. and unlike the cal wich normally would of been able to achieve similar results it cant be naded out of position effectivly either due to the splash reduction because locus just dont do enough damage to counter it unlike fluxes wich will still be able to take out the cals entire shield buffer.
the Gal heavy has no natural predator, and if you pair it with a minmatar logi with a maxed out rep tool your simply not going to be able to kill it off effectivly, the damn thing will survive remotes with ease as well.
HP is king, and the gal heavy reguardless of what weapon you stick on it is going to break the game.
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1166
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Posted - 2014.03.01 10:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:I think your predictions sound pretty good, but you really never know for sure how it will play out. It's more observation than prediction. Who hasn't already said these things especially about the CalHeavies/Fluxes? I know I have. Heavy 514 isn't coming it's been here for a couple weeks people are just now starting to take notice because of the event.
you are correct, the event is definatly the cause of me taking a closer look at things to come, and anyone who thinks its bad now is going to wet themselves when an gal heavys are being spammed with every weapon under the sun simply because EVERYTHING that you shoot them with is going to be doing reduced damage either by its own effeciancy profile or from the damage reduction.
nothing else in the game compaires since its the ONLY heavy suit that doesnt have a resistance hole, theres nothing you can throw at it that will be doing decent damage, coupled with it having the ability to stack the most HP of any suit means it may as well be the only suit in the game, everything else is inferior. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1166
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Posted - 2014.03.01 10:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:When will DMG, eHP and DMG resistance not be the most imporant stats in a FPS?
They will not be imporant if they only add a minor bonus, and not lets say 15% more HP per module like here.
well damage isnt important right now, and ehp and resistance are essentially the same :P
the problem is that PURE EHP is the most important stat, and its the only stat that matters in a suit, rather then say having their be a reason to focus on shields OR armor rather then both. and having any build that doesnt focus on that be not viable.
it was supposed to be a game where the desision between shields, armor, speed, stam, scanning, and all those other mods were worthy choices givin the oportunity, but the reality has ended up that nothing but full on brick tank is any good, every other choice isnt just inferior, it VASTLY inferior. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1166
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Posted - 2014.03.01 11:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:
caldari heavys are going to learn very quickly that fluxes kill as they cant get enough armor to survive one like their assault and logi brotheren.
I agree with most of your predictions tbh, but I find this one baffling. You can get a comfortable 600 armour HP on a Caldari heavy and the shields start regenerating instantly after a flux. They won't kill you instantly. They'll do damage, but they won't guarantee a death, not by a long shot.
its 600 armor that wont regen, and 600HP is managable especially concidering that the cal heavy has ZERO armor resistances meaning you can bring full DPS to bear down on it with everything that isnt explosive.
a flux basically turns it into mush
my point was that a flux turns the cal heavy into a manageable situation, unlike the gal heavy wich has no such weakness. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1166
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Posted - 2014.03.01 11:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
ALT2 acc wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Amarr heavy will actually be better overall.
Superior projectile resistance, good armor buffer and twin damage mods means they will win heavy vs heavy engagements.
The token 10% resistance to hybrids will still give them the edge against lighter suits.
Good enough to kill the smaller stuff by default, has better damage resistance and damage application to deal with other heavies. There is only one logical choice for serious brawling and it's not the Gallente suit I'm afraid. Haha, ******* lol 5% more resistance with only 1 armor resistance with less slots, give me a ******* break...
the only thing worse then the amarr heavy, is the minmatar one. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1166
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Posted - 2014.03.01 11:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:with this and the new stats in mind heavys are going to be absolute monsters in 1.8 with insane amounts of EHP even while using basic suits while fully skilled.
commandos (aka heavy assault) are going to overshadow traditional assault suits and logis are going to actually be logis.
scouts are going to be.... dieing alot and killing alot but then again scouts have never really been all that concerned with KDR.
mass drivers are going to be crap against the heavy spam and OP against everything else.
winmatar assaults are going to also suffer from that splash damage reduction.
caldari heavys are going to learn very quickly that fluxes kill as they cant get enough armor to survive one like their assault and logi brotheren.
gallante heavys are going to scare the **** out of people and will be FOTM since they are going to be running around with over 1000 armor and damage resistance against anything thats actually good at countering that (unlike the caldari version)
1.8 FOTM
gallante heavy
flux nades
caldari/gal scout
HMGs
minmatar commandos with CR and MDs
special mention, logis are going to absolutly LOVE 1.8 as it will be VERY armor heavy and there will be LOADS of people to rep and give ammo to that cant bring ammo themselves.
Winmatar logi People keep talking about the Gallente heavy but the real monster here is the Caldari Sentinel which will be the ultimate solo suit.
the gallante commando that brings its own rep hives will certainly give it a run for its money :P the the gal heavy packing fluxes |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1168
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Posted - 2014.03.01 14:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
1.8 is heavy 514
sadly though the minmatar heavy cant hold a candle to the other 3, and the amaar is outclassed by gal and cal.
this game has balance problems. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1168
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Posted - 2014.03.01 14:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:Arx Ardashir wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:
There's a slight rounding error in your post it's .909090 repeating not .9
110 x (1/1.1) = 100%
The .9 was from 90%, aka a -10% damage reduction. I have never seen anyone do 1 divided by 110% to apply a 10% damage reduction. I remain confident in my original post. The damage bonus is applied to the incoming damage and the resist to the shield/armor. x*a = y*b y = x*a/b or y = x*a*1/b No idea what kind of funky math you are trying to post here but arx is definitely correct.
damage resistance aka damage reduction is indeed applyed to.... damage... as it reduces damage.... i had this same debate long ago about tank resistance and went throught he trouble of proving it back then so i can confirm first hand the math is all done damage side and doesnt interact with shields/armor at all.
damage = 100
bonus = 10%
reduction = 10%
damage + bonus = 110
10% of 110 is 11 and so final damage is 99, this is the correct way to calculate it.
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1168
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Posted - 2014.03.01 14:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Arx Ardashir wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:
The damage bonus is applied to the incoming damage and the resist to the shield/armor.
x*a = y*b
y = x*a/b or y = x*a*1/b
What are your variables? Also, I don't know why you have the two sides equal. Damage applied (X) = [Weapon damage(d) x weapon bonus (b)] x Resist(r) or X = (db)r
guys its irrelevent, ive posted the explanation on how damage reduction is calculated, ive tested it extensivly int he past back when there was a debate how resistance worked on tanks and know 100% first hand how it works in dust.
i also simplified out so that an idiot could understand it and did so without having to post mathmatical formulas, your all putting in alot of effort when its obvious that 10% of 110 is in fact 11, and so 100 damage turns into 99 after a 10% bonus and a 10% reduction are applyed. |
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1168
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Posted - 2014.03.01 14:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Arx Ardashir wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:
The damage bonus is applied to the incoming damage and the resist to the shield/armor.
x*a = y*b
y = x*a/b or y = x*a*1/b
What are your variables? Also, I don't know why you have the two sides equal. Damage applied (X) = [Weapon damage(d) x weapon bonus (b)] x Resist(r) or X = (db)r Rule of Conservation. In = Out weapon damage (x) * weapon bonus (a) = health value (y) * resist (b) rearrange to for weapon damage needed to kill ______: x = y*b/a or for how much damage from ______ weapon can given hp sustain: y = x*a/b
except that your weapon will do the exact same damage reguardless of how much HP the target has.... meaning "health value" should in no way EVER be in your equation.
tested and proven personally, your calculating somethign that doesnt exsist in the game. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1168
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Posted - 2014.03.01 14:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Arx Ardashir wrote:
Which is what I said in my original reminder, yes. I was just trying to help Asha understand. The original post was about EHP, though, so talk of resistances isn't irrelevant.
I am curious as to how much (%) damage from each type is going to be applied to a fully skilled Gal Sentinel. Unfortuantely, the web filter at my work blocks CCP's images on the upcoming changes, so I can't do it myself at the moment.
15% reduction against rail weaponry (armor only)
10% reduction against projectile (armor only)
25% redection against splash (armor and shields)
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1168
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Posted - 2014.03.01 14:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Arx Ardashir wrote:
90% damage from explosive splash damage (would a direct hit from an MD or Flaylock deal the full 120%?)
Scary indeed. Nothing will do full damage against it's main tank, unless direct hits from explosive weapons are excluded from the splash reduction (which you think they would).
i think you may be correct, a mass driver/flaylock to the face is going to do its full damage and ignore all the resistances!
this my friend, makes you my hero for the day, i hadnt even though of that yet.
this makes a case for MD/Flaylock becuase the gal is going to be REALLY slow... and so flaylocks and breach massdrivers are going to be able to hit their mark quite easily in this case and end up doing insane damage.
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1168
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Posted - 2014.03.01 15:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
Arx Ardashir wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:this my friend, makes you my hero for the day, i hadnt even though of that yet.
this makes a case for MD/Flaylock becuase the gal is going to be REALLY slow... and so flaylocks and breach massdrivers are going to be able to hit their mark quite easily in this case and end up doing insane damage.
Does this make up for the semi-hijack? 
it justifies it completly
the minmatar commando is going to be the only thing that can put up a fight.....
the minmatar assault is a candidate as it stands as well due to its increased flaylock clip size making direct hits very very likely. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1168
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Posted - 2014.03.01 15:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Arx Ardashir wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:Rule of Conservation. In = Out
weapon damage (x) * weapon bonus (a) = health value (y) * resist (b)
rearrange to for
weapon damage needed to kill ______:
x = y*b/a
or for how much damage from ______ weapon can given hp sustain:
y = x*a/b Well there's your problem, Asha. You're not looking for the damage done, but the damage needed. There's a difference. Fair enough, but I calc how it's stated. Ghosts Chance wrote:except that your weapon will do the exact same damage reguardless of how much HP the target has.... meaning "health value" should in no way EVER be in your equation.
tested and proven personally, your calculating somethign that doesnt exsist in the game. What does that even mean? The target will only ever see the damage equivalent to their hp. For example, you instantaneously deal 900pts of pure damage to a target with 600 total ehp, they will only see 600damage, the point at which their health drops to 0. The remaining 300pts goes into a corpse. Health will always equal damage taken. About your tests IIRC 'in-game' decimals are not displayed so without pulling the real-time data straight from the system memory the best you can do is an approximation on how it is handled not a definitive conclusion.
you can rule out by exemption, its not about matching nuymbers its about calculating expected results and getting ACTUAL results and compairing the two.
aka you know wich ones right because it came within the same number + or - a tiny fraction.
if you were expecting 1523 damage for one calculation and 1654 for the other and the real damage recieved was 1534 wich of the two original formulas was correct?
you math is technically correct, for calulating EHP, but we were discussing damage itself and how damage reduction has a greater effect then a damage bonus and so we could not use EHP as our basis we actually had to use the math used in game to confirm that.
10 damage increase is worth less then a 10% damage reduction, because an increase is = to 10 and a reduction is equal to 11 from my previous example.
in addition to that the decimal places ARE shown in game under the weapon information screen AND we can do the math for HP accurate to a (near) infinate amount of decimal places because of the wonderful invention of the calulator.
your assumption that we cant calculate the numbers in game with 100% accuracy is false, we can its a really really simple thing called math.
i can calulate with 100% accuracyu how much cpu or PG we have after skills are applyed, and how much cpu and pg a module or weapon uses (including decimal places :P) with 100% accuracy as well.
i can also calculate EXACTLY how much hp a suit has including decimal places
i can calulate how much damage something will do including decimal places
i can calculate how much damage something can obsorb including decimal places.
math... it kinda works. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1168
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Posted - 2014.03.01 16:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
ive been doing math and WOW... if you thought heavys wielding RRs is bad now.... just wait till you run into a gal heavy with 1101.75 armor in ddition to its aprox 480 shields.....
forget HMGs on the thing, it doesnt matter what weapon you stick on that suit your going to be a wrecking ball...
the cal sentinal is just as bad but wont be able to take advantage of logi reps in quite the same way....
heavys with light weapons.... heavys with light weapons EVERYWHERE....
assault suits cannot compete, HP>Speed and damage |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1168
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Posted - 2014.03.01 16:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Arx Ardashir wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:
You solved for (b), which you already provided, and due to the associative law the statement is false because a=b, they cancel each other out leaving 200 = 600, which is not true. What you solved for was how much of a damage penalty would be needed for a 200hp shot to kill a suit with 600hp. :/
Yeah, I had quite a bit of trouble trying to shoehorn the damage profile into your EHP equation, because they're not the same thing. But that's just it, you're trying to use a "x needed to kill y" equation to try and find a "x does z" answer. I'm starting to regret trying to shoehorn, however, because now it's going to distract from the point that EHP w/ resist =/= damage w/ bonus.
you tried thats what counts.
now lets try to see how much damage we can stuff into a breach mass driver :P
aparently on a minmatar commando with 2 damage mods you can get it to aproximatly 546 (i aproximated the penalty on the second dmg mod)
meaning you can ALMOST 2 shot a gal heavy with it with direct hits.... thats insane, its a shotgun basically..... assuming they dont change the dmg profile of the MD that is... and its down to the wire, and depending on build....
i forse breach mass drivers being clutch the only problem is commandos cant have granades... |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1168
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Posted - 2014.03.01 16:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Arx Ardashir wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:now lets try to see how much damage we can stuff into a breach mass driver :P
aparently on a minmatar commando with 2 damage mods you can get it to aproximatly 546 (i aproximated the penalty on the second dmg mod)
meaning you can ALMOST 2 shot a gal heavy with it with direct hits.... thats insane, its a shotgun basically..... assuming they dont change the dmg profile of the MD that is... and its down to the wire, and depending on build....
i forse breach mass drivers being clutch the only problem is commandos cant have granades... Don't forget this post, Ghosts: CCP Logibro wrote:Well, that's not the only thing the Mass Driver is getting in 1.8
Increased base direct/splash damage from 242/116 to 300/145 So, if the base MD is getting buffed to 300 direct damage, what's the new breach value going to be?
could be nothing.... (sadface) they are known for changing some values and not others, i think they left one of the original assault md stats in place when they nerfed em :P |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1201
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Posted - 2014.03.03 14:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
ALT2 acc wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:EHP is King in 1.5, 1.6, and 1.7. I am not so sure about 1.8. *Grabs a cloaked shotgun* *whistles*
good luck getting 6 shots off before you get mowed down dude.
your ideal target is the support logis, get in, wait, time it right, kill the logi, and gtfo.
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1201
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Posted - 2014.03.03 14:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
ALT2 acc wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:EHP is King in 1.5, 1.6, and 1.7. I am not so sure about 1.8. *Grabs a cloaked shotgun* *whistles* good luck getting 6 shots off before you get mowed down dude. your ideal target is the support logis, get in, wait, time it right, kill the logi, and gtfo. Currently for a mlt shotgun, its 3 shots
im just sayin, if im making a PC team and im including scouts, their job will be uplink hunting, flank harassment and logi killing.
prioritise logis man, scouts are the best way to remove the logis quickly and effectivly.
its like MMO-style combat, the rogues job is to tie up and or instagank the healers so that the rest of the team can do their jobs. |
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1206
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Posted - 2014.03.03 18:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Roy Ventus wrote:I don't agree with some of the statements about the heavies.
Gallente Sentinels will be weak against explosives. MDs come back and they'll blow their armor and HP to Hell. The Scrambler will also still be an issue since it's a high alpha damage weapon with nice precision.
Amarr Sentinels will also be weak against explosives, surprisingly. Minmatar Commandos will be the source of pain from both the Amarr and their Gallente counterparts. The AR will still be as effective as it is today though, since the Amarr aren't really focused on regen but just stacking. The AR will also be effective because their shields are resistant to rail technology, not blasters.
While the Caldari won't be weak to the Laser Rifle or blasters, it will keep it's weakness to Flux grenades. Timed properly, a flux grenade can lead to an easier kill due to the resistance being based on it's shields, not armor and the fact that the shields don't have a resistance to Flux grenades.
The Minmatar will actually be weak to explosives as well. A combination of Rail Rifles and Flaylocks will do them in quick.
they are only weak in reguards to direct hits, wich only the skilled can pull off reliably |
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